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Post by Rex NZ on Jul 24, 2013 8:04:01 GMT -12
Official changes for 2014
Classes
2.5hp Dinghy Class: 3.5-1 hull ratio minimum, mono hull, minimum length 10 ft, standard classic 64cc seagull engine, no modifications, cavitation plate allowed, prop modifications allowed using seagull props. A & B Grade.
2.5 hp Modified Class: any hull, minimum length 10 ft, classic 64 cc engine, must have seagull block (no liner), seagull crankcase, seagull head, seagull flywheel, seagull carburettor, leg from other outboards allowed , reed valves allowed , tuned pipes allowed, cavitation plate and prop modifications allowed, over size piston allowed, gearbox nose cones allowed. Two records, one with tuned pipe & one without.
4.5 hp Dinghy Class: 3.5 -1 hull ratio minimum, mono hull, minimum length 10 ft, standard classic engine, no modifications, engine models 102, century, and silver century, cavitation plate allowed, prop modification allowed using seagull props. A & B Grade.
4.5hp Modified Class: any hull, minimum length 10 ft, classic seagull must have seagull block (no liner), crankcase, flywheel, head, carburettor. Leg from other outboard allowed, reed valves allowed, tuned pipes allowed, cavitation plate and prop modifications allowed, engines are 102, century, and silver century or two 2.5hp 64cc seagulls, oversize piston allowed, gearbox nose cones allowed in the modified class only. Two records, one with tuned pipe & one without.
Classic Bermudan Dinghy Class: mono hull, minimum 3.5-1 hull ratio, minimum length 12ft, two persons on board with minimum combined weight of 150 kg, spare seagull may be used to make up minimum weight, standard engine, no modifications, 102,century and silver century models, cavitation plate allowed, prop modifications allowed using seagull props.
New Bermudan Flea Class: mono hull, minimum length 12 ft, max 20ft, one bow, no outriggers, two persons onboard with minimum combined weight of 150 kg, spare seagull engine can be used to make up weight, standard engine, no modifications, models 102, century and silver century, prop modifications allowed using seagull props, cavitation plate allowed.
Open Class: any hull, minimum length 10ft, engines are Kingfisher, Osprey, QB curlew 64 cc, 170 unmodified, 125 all in their standard form as manufactured, exceptions are cavitation plate prop modifications allowed.
Sport Class: any hull minimum length 10ft, engines in this class are Seagull Sport (standard), 5R or 170 with yamaha leg, 5R & 170 engines can be run with tuned pipe. Two records, one with tuned pipe & one without. 5R & 170 must have seagull block (no liner), crankcase, flywheel, head, carburettor, Yamaha leg allowed, prop replacements or modifications allowed.
Notes on Engines: By entering in the stock engine classes, you are agreeing to split the engine at the completion of the regatta if you are 1st, 2nd, or 3rd (if requested). If you have set a new record, you must split the engine for inspection. Pump fuel to be used in all classes except Modified & Sport. Standard engine means as it was manufactured at the factory & all parts unmodified with the exceptions outlined in each class. First time competitors in Dinghy classes are B grade, all others are A grade.
Notes on Hulls: minimum hull length is 10ft for one man and 12ft for two man, if participants can satisfy officials before the event that there craft is sea worthy at a smaller size then approval may be given. (Must be pre-approved).
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Post by chicken on Jul 24, 2013 20:43:27 GMT -12
I feel some more are needed,
The dinghy rules are good to allow the rookies to have a fair go and keep the motors purely stock,
As for the modified I feel it should be all seagull parts, cavitation plates allowed, other props & gearbox nose cones allowed and allow people to modify what they have and then have an Unlimited type Class to allow for almost anything every type of Bolton option like external pipe, reeds, turbo, supercharger, over size pistons, other outboard legs etc allow people to really show the kiwi ingenuity
As for the sport class how can someone with a 170 or 5r even on a Yamaha leg compete with a sport that has an extra 23cc?
Chicken
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Post by Rex NZ on Jul 25, 2013 10:27:08 GMT -12
I agree the dinghy classes should allow rookies a good chance of winning The current rules are based on tech specifications. This is a fundamentally flawed system as it promotes stealth mods & 'stretching' of the rules & scrutineering issues. Motor racing in general has rather stupidly fallen into this trap. Examples shown in HQ racing, motorbike racing, kart racing. Americas Cup is probably the epitome of the problem, where they spend too much resources on lawyers & court hearings scrapping over tech specs than actually going sailing. Creates alot of animosity with time. Rewriting the rules only serves to rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic. The bickering never stops. Arrogance prevails. A better system is that of time categories. This has evolved well in drag racing & car club gymkhana type events & club bike racing. Time categories are self policing & virtually impossible to cheat. No tech scrutineering needed. A time based system encourages people to achieve a time with less equipment & innovate new ideas. Takes away the cheque-book aspect. When applied to Seagullians, the benefits of a time class system would be * Encourages 'Kiwi Ingenuity'. Sharing of tech ideas becomes commonplace (drag-racers are always generous in sharing ideas). Stealth mods dissapear. Different people will develop different strategies to achieve the same result. Some will focus on hulls, some on engines, some on fuel chemistry, others may focus on river pilotage. * No tech scrutineering needed. * Faster isn't always better, as going too fast will only get you bumped up a class * Events are more exciting as you'll always be running with others of similar speed. * In real life people will tend to find a time class they are comfortable with & stay there. * Rookies would drop into the greater time classes & experience a terrific run What say everybody?  |
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Post by Rex NZ on Jul 25, 2013 21:38:46 GMT -12
Suggested Rules changes from MicroGullClassesStock 2.5hp Dinghy Class: 3.5-1 hull ratio minimum, mono hull, minimum length 10 ft, standard classic 64cc seagull engine, no modifications, cavitation plates & prop modifications allowed using only seagull props. For both Rookie & Pro classes. 2.5 hp Modified Class: any hull, minimum length 10 ft, classic 64 cc engine, all parts must be British seagull, cavitation plates, other make props & gearbox nose cones allowed. 2.5 hp Unlimited Class Nutters : any hull with scrutineer’s ok , classic 64 cc engine, must have seagull block & piston, over size pistons, legs & props from other outboards, reed valves, tuned pipes, cavitation plates & gearbox nose cones allowed. 4.5 hp Dinghy Class: 3.5 -1 hull ratio minimum, mono hull, minimum length 10 ft, standard classic engine, no modifications, engine models 102, century, & silver century, cavitation plates & prop modifications allowed using only seagull props. For both Rookie & Pro classes. 4.5 hp Modified Class: any hull, minimum length 10 ft, engine models 102, century, & silver century, all parts must be seagull, cavitation plates, other make props & gearbox nose cones allowed. 4.5 hp Unlimited Nutters Class: any hull with scrutineer’s ok, engine models 102, century, & silver century, must have seagull block & piston, over size pistons, legs & props from other outboards, reed valves, tuned pipes, cavitation plates & gearbox nose cones allowed.( Flak jacket optional) Classic Bermudan Dinghy Class: mono hull, minimum 3.5-1 hull ratio, minimum length 12ft, two persons on board with minimum combined weight of 150 kg, spare seagull engine or wife may be used to make up minimum weight, standard classic engine, engine models 102, century and silver century, no modifications, cavitation plates & prop modifications allowed using only seagull props. For both Rookie & Pro classes. New Bermudan Flea Class: mono hull, minimum length 12 ft, max 20ft, one bow, no outriggers, two persons onboard with minimum combined weight of 150 kg, spare seagull engine or wife can be used to make up weight, standard classic engine, engine models 102, century and silver century, no modifications, standard engine, cavitation plates & prop modifications allowed using only seagull props. Open Class: any hull with scrutineer’s ok , engines are Kingfisher, Osprey, 170, 125 & 5R all in their standard form as manufactured , exceptions are cavitation plate & other make props . Open Unlimited Nutters Class: any hull with scrutineer’s ok, engines are any seagull not covered by the classes above with scrutineer’s ok.. suprise us!( Flak jacket optional) Sport Class: any hull with scrutineer’s ok, this class is for the 125cc standard Seagull Sport, cavitation plates & other make props, gearbox nose cones allowed. Notes on Engines: By entering in the stock engine classes, you are agreeing to split the engine IF REQUESTED! at the completion of the regatta if you are 1st, 2nd, or 3rd (). If you have set a new record, you must split the engine for inspection.IF REQUESTED! (note we know what to look for : ) Standard Pump fuel or Coca cola to be used in all classes except Unlimited & Sport. Standard engine means as it was manufactured at the factory & all parts unmodified with the exceptions outlined in each class. First time competitors in Dinghy classes are Rookies, all others are Pro, & this class was set up to encourage & assist others to enjoy the wonders of the Waikato. Powered Drifting Or Towed its a awesome trip! Notes on Hulls: minimum hull length is 10ft for one man and 12ft for two man, if participants can satisfy officials before the event that there craft is sea worthy at a smaller size then approval may be given. (Must be pre-approved ). PRE RACE SAFETY INSPECTIONRemember to have your sweeties ready for the scrutineer's as this may help with there decisions Now with that all sorted lets get out the and warm the planet 
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Post by thetinker on Jul 25, 2013 23:02:35 GMT -12
I agree with both Rex on time limit classes and micro gull, I would like to see New Bermudian allowed to change engines a little using only parts from 102, Century 100 and silver Century. Any mixture of parts from these three engines is Ok. This is for those that think they are smarter then Seagull designers but dont want to go silly and spend big bucks. Also maybe 2 years in Rookie class is Ok if you dont make the top 3 places in the first year.
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Post by Rex NZ on Jul 27, 2013 8:56:09 GMT -12
Here's some more 'out there' ideas
Ceding System
This is used in tennis & golf. Here a leader-board exists & you compete for ranking on the leader-board. Your run time could be recorded against the hardware used to achieve that time. So to achieve say a 5hr run in a a sport in hardly a great deal, however a 5hr run in a classic would be tremendous
Upsides- Encourages innovation. You cannot actually win or lose as such
Downsides - Tough on Rookies
A Weight System
This is used in boxing to determine classes. Here maybe your run time could be recorded against your gross weight
Upsides - Would encourage ideas on how to make heavy boats go faster
Downside - Would advantage longboats. Tough on Rookies
The General Emerging view so far;
* More change needed
* Rookies getting a better deal
* Encourage innovation
* Keep it cheap
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Post by chicken on Jul 27, 2013 14:10:55 GMT -12
Your right Rex with the General Emerging view, those are the main reasons most of us are here! as well as it being super fun! I like MicroGull's proposal as it covers those ideas and keeps it accessible for everyone, and allows a class (Unlimited) for people to throw some money at it if they have it and those that don't to get creative with what ever they can get, and it promotes the innovation for the modified for the best combinations of seagull parts and modifying what they have. This also keeps it cheap as it allows us to build engines from the leftover parts most of us have.
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ross
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Post by ross on Jul 28, 2013 20:15:39 GMT -12
The new rules are what we will run with for the next event as the flyers have been printed and paid for . If anyone wants rule changes please have them in writing and give to JC at next years event along with the $50 cash ! This helps to cover costs involved.We have 8 classes now with two grades within a class (a & b ) so that gives us 10 . We don't need anymore classes as you can win a class at the moment without any competition so its a bit like a default win .More competitors gives us good close nail biting racing . The modified class is for the hotrodders to play but as long as you are bassically still racing a seagull engine as this is what the race is about, hence the 5 basic componants you must have .Re sport class , I hold the sport record at 3:11 with a sport engine and I 'm confident of beating that record with my 170 which is modified where as the sports are in there standard form .Always ready to help anyone with advise and parts for the race . regards Ross
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Post by chillidog on Jul 28, 2013 21:07:20 GMT -12
Chris Classes ideas
My idea is to primarily base seagull racing around the plentiful supply of classic motors (102 / centuries )
in a standard or mildly tickled form . As you can see if your not a rookie , you are a pro where you can only modify your engine to a point , which I believe tends to happen in the current dinghy standard class anyway , so lets just drop the tag and make the scrutinizing easy , it means the minor tampering can come out of the closet .Major modification engineering is nutters class .
I believe all boats need inbuilt floatation .
Number system based on your cell phone number ? last 3 digits
I'd like to see a Race series over the season for the upper north island , say Pihia , Whangamata , Witiara , Mungakinio , Arapuni , Waikato . you drop your worst result and Waikato counts triple points
You get 2 years in rookie unless you break the 20 percent limit . which is the pro winners time
I'd like to have a standard classifications over all events ultimately
I feel modifications , like reed valves, oversize pistons,roller bearings, tuned exhaust and other legs and props push up the engineering cost excessively , and while they should be catered for ,just not in the general area where most people choose to race . so modification in the Pro class only apply to classic parts , your can't use sport parts for instance .i don't think fuel should be regulated as it can't be policed, so use what you like .
so classes look similar to micro gulls just no modified/standard pro differentiation
Stock 2.5hp rookie class Dinghy Class: 3.5-1 hull ratio minimum, mono hull, minimum length 10 ft, standard classic 64cc seagull engine, no modifications, cavitation plates & prop modifications allowed using only seagull props. o classes.
2.5 hp pro Class: any hull, minimum length 10 ft, classic 64 cc engine, all parts must be British seagull, cavitation plates, seagull props must used
2.5 hp Unlimited Class Nutters : any hull with scrutineer’s ok , classic 64 cc engine, must have seagull block & piston, over size pistons, legs & props from other outboards, reed valves, tuned pipes, cavitation plates & gearbox nose cones allowed.
4.5 hp rookie Dinghy Class: 3.5 -1 hull ratio minimum, mono hull, minimum length 10 ft, standard classic engine, no modifications, engine models 102, century, & silver century, cavitation plates & prop modifications allowed using only seagull props. .
4.5 hp pro Class: any hull, minimum length 10 ft, engine models 102, century, & silver century, all parts must be seagull, cavitation plates,
4.5 hp Unlimited Nutters Class: any hull with scrutineer’s ok, engine models 102, century, & silver century, must have seagull block & piston, over size pistons, legs & props from other outboards, reed valves, tuned pipes, cavitation plates & gearbox nose cones allowed.( Flak jacket optional)
Rookies who finish with in 20 percent of the pro winners time automatically graded pro
Classic Bermudan Dinghy Class: mono hull, minimum 3.5-1 hull ratio, minimum length 12ft, two persons on board with minimum combined weight of 150 kg, spare seagull engine or wife may be used to make up minimum weight, standard classic engine, engine models 102, century and silver century, , cavitation plates & prop modifications allowed using only seagull props.
New Bermudan Flea Class: mono hull, minimum length 12 ft, max 20ft, one bow, no outriggers, two persons onboard with minimum combined weight of 150 kg, spare seagull engine or wife can be used to make up weight, standard classic engine, engine models 102, century and silver century, modifications with seagull classic engine parts , cavitation plates & prop modifications allowed using only seagull props.
Open Class: any hull with scrutineer’s ok , engines are Kingfisher, Osprey, 170, 125 & 5R all in their standard form as manufactured , exceptions are cavitation plate & other make props
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Open Unlimited Nutters Class:
any hull with scrutineer’s ok, engines are any seagull not covered by the classes above with scrutineer’s ok.. surprise us!( Flak jacket optional)
Sport Class: any hull with scrutineer’s ok, this class is for the 125cc standard Seagull Sport, cavitation plates & other make props, gearbox nose cones allowed.
Notes on Engines: . If you have set a new record, you may be requested to split the engine for inspection.
Standard engine means as it was manufactured at the factory & all parts unmodified with the exceptions outlined in each class.
First time competitors in Dinghy classes are Rookies, all others are Pro, & this class was set up to encourage & assist others to enjoy the wonders of the Waikato.Rookies who finish with in 20 percent of the pro winners time automatically graded pro
Powered Drifting Or Towed its a awesome trip!
Notes on Hulls: minimum hull length is 10ft for one man and 12ft for two man, if participants can satisfy officials before the event that there craft is sea worthy at a smaller size then approval may be given. (Must be pre-approved ).
Each hull must have positive trapped buoyancy and pass safety inspection
the hull must be numbered with the last 3 digits of a working phone carried on the boat registered with race officials in 300 high decals that are plainly visible
i don't like wieght , time classes rex put forward , I aim to keep it simple , cheap , appealing and not require too many checks to make sure you in the right engine class
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Post by thetinker on Jul 28, 2013 21:56:04 GMT -12
WELL done Chris, this offer a sensible solution to all. I think dinghy rookie should restricted to production type boats as well. Any others are pro class. It is up to scutineer to decide. Be interesting how others feel about these as possible rules.
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Post by thetinker on Jul 28, 2013 21:59:13 GMT -12
WELL done Chris, this offer a sensible solution to all. I think dinghy rookie should restricted to production type boats as well. Any others are pro class. It is up to scutineer to decide. Be interesting how others feel about these as possible rules. Maybe we shall adopt these rules for Brits at the Beach. Feed back very welcome. |
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Post by Rex NZ on Jul 29, 2013 10:57:03 GMT -12
WOWThere's some really good ideas coming thru Chilli-Dog; I can see you've though through your suggestion quite carefully. The race series concept shifts this focus with these 2x points; * it puts the emphasis on participation as opposed to 'First past the Post' FPP * this isn't so much about proposing changes to Waikato as it's about creating unification in Seagull events across the board Tinker; Can you expand on your views/specs on boats suitable for the rookie classes. Also, Using 'Brits at the Beach' as a testing ground is a good idea to see how new rules will play out in real life. If the rules used at 'Brits' is successful it'll give good cause for them to be adopted by other events. Details for a Time Class ProposalReduction to say 5x classes (based on a geometric progression of speed) Unlimited Class; 14 Knot plus average (For Waikato sub 5.4 hrs) Pro Class; 10 Knot to 14 Knot average (For Waikato 5.4 hrs to 7.6 hrs) Players Class 7 Knot to 10 Knot average (For Waikato 7.6 hrs to 10.9 hrs) Seasoned Class5 Knot to 7 Knot average (For Waikato 10.9 hrs to 15.2 hrs) Rookie ClassSub 5 Knot average (For Waikato 15.2 hrs) Updated General Emerging view; * There's still strong support for a 'tech spec' class system * Rookies must get a good deal * Encourage innovation * Eliminate 'cheque-book' advantages * This 'rules discussion' isn't really about changing Waikato 2014, it's about creating unified standards in Seagull events. 
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pomme
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Post by pomme on Jul 29, 2013 11:14:28 GMT -12
I have been watching with interest over the past few years, how the Waikato classes/rules have moved away from where they stood 5 or 10 years ago.
For example 5 years ago
2.5hp modified
Any hull, modified engine using seagull parts, cav plate & prop enhancement.
Modified class - hot rodders class.
Any hull form & any mod to motors using only seagull parts, may have cav plate & prop enhancement, 102cc, 2 x 2.5 hp may be used instead of 1 x 4.5hp.
Open class
Any hull form & able to use the QB seagull range, 170 seagull & 5R. no tuned pipes. the 170 seagull may use a 5hp leg from another brand to make it competitive.
Things seem to get fixed when they're not broke,
Where did the demand for the following come from?
2.5 hp mod
Strange legs
reed valves
tuned pipes
No liners
nose cones
over size pistons
The same with the 4.5hp mod
The problems with all these changes is that they are making it more elitist
in the faster classes.
Now you will need a tuned pipe, reed valves, custom prop & a nose cone to stand a chance in any of the modified classes.
More people own 5R's than 170s in NZ why do they have to run in a class where they're an hour slower, put them back in the open class!
I agree with the Rookie & Pro suggestions but lets keep stock "stock" & keep modified, seagull parts only, if you allow minor modding to the Stock classes then a 3 mph improvement should be possible, not very fair to grandad who just wants a good weekend with his grandson as it is for the guys who don't want to spend hours working on their motors.
I think Microgull has almost hit the nail right on the head, have a class for everybody, where all have the same chance of a good result, & a good hull might make the difference but the guy with next door's borrowed tinny & motor can still see him.
I agree that the modded 170's should be removed from the open class for being too quick, & that the stock 170 should not run with the 4.5hp mods
But as for these classes applying to the rest of NZ, I think there is little chance when they're not pushing the limits & run with virtually no rules at all!
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cobba
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Post by cobba on Jul 29, 2013 16:07:14 GMT -12
As a Rookie I'm not really clued up enough yet to be able to come up with much in the way of ideas for this discussion but I do have a couple of concerns.
If Rookie class is made only for standard dinghies, where would I fit in with my boat which is a sailing dinghy (Laser style) but with major alterations to make it Seagull powered? Would it be seen as having too much advantage over your standard tinny?
Also, if the new rules are tried out at Brits this year I could be in a tricky situation with boat length because I'm looking at taking my 8 foot 6 tinny and 40 plus. The reason for this is because I might take my Bradford and I can easily chuck the small tinny on the roof.
Just an interesting note - I tried out my 40 plus on my 8 foot 6 Parkercraft and on my 12 foot Fyran over the same course and the same tide time and direction. The bigger, heavier boat was about 3 minutes quicker over the approx. 50 minute journey.
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Post by chicken on Jul 29, 2013 16:36:39 GMT -12
Thank you Chilli for that post it seems we have been thinking alike , this is a proposal I have written up for a unification in Seagull events, This is not to make it political or anything I just like to feel like I am in a real sport and get more people involved and make things a little more clear and constant as having lots of different rules and types means people have to have a setup for each set and I know firsthand how much time and effort people put in to these motors and boats as well as going to events and those who organise these great events, and to promote these events and the love for this great motor, This proposal is set up to allow event organisers to easily setup the type of events by selecting the type of event, course and rules and distribute out to those who want to participate. Note the series is an option and not compulsory just for those who would like to be apart, this is just a bit of fun not all seriousness. Just my thoughts so please leave them intact  but ideas thoughts and opinions are welcome. _____________________________________________________________________________ (NZBSRA) NZ British Seagull Racing Association An Unregistered Non-Profit Association - No Costs The (NZBSRA) to be formed to promote and develop British Seagull Racing/Gatherings in the community by providing family orientated fun events and run a national or regional series using every event around the chosen area who choose to participate for a points series using the Waikato River Seagull Race as series final. The Association to actively encourage: • Running regional, national and international events. • Providing opportunities for enthusiast to socialise together • Helping enthusiast participate successfully at events • Encourage innovation • Providing resources to event organisers e.g. race notices, rules • Keep it cheap The association is to be run by volunteers with committee member from each region and age group to cover all opinions with open public discussions to make sure every ones opinions are discussed, and increase the number of events. Events: Event Types: FPP: As seen on the Waikato a time based system where classes leave at specified times and are timed to the finish, this allows for multiple race legs like the 2 day Waikato where times are then combined from each leg to give a competitors a total time where the quickest time wins. This event type is to use class rules to allow even playing fields. Time Challenge: This event see competitors of chosen or any class head if in a chosen path or direction for a chosen amount of time or time of day, at that time competitors turn around and head back to the start, this gives an even playing field and means faster boats have further distance to travel and gives rookies a fair chance. Other: Courses: BTB: Bridge to Bridge DTD: Dam to Dam Circuit: Loop or other shape around buoys, islands or other as specified at event A-B: Start and finish point as specified at event Other: Points System for Series: 1 Point for 1st 2 Points for 2nd 3 Points for 3rd etc... DNF (Did Not Finish) Number of entrants/class entrants +1 DNS (Did Not Start) Number of entrants/class entrants +1 OSC (Over Start Line Early) Number of entrants/class entrants +1 Competitor drops worst result at the end of series Competitor with lowest number of points at end of series wins Class Rules: These are the base rules promoted by NZBSRA to be used for events part of the NZBSRA Series, These are rules to be used to allow even playing field across all classes, and these rules will be decided as of public discussions to ensure all options are heard, these rules can then be used for events along with event Venue Race Rules different for each event and location (for safety and on water behaviour) Timing Systems: ETS: (Electronic Timing System) Rfid/Transponder based timing where each competitor is given a timing device to carry onboard. This system records times when the competitor passes or crosses a specified point by triggering a Radio or magnetic sensor. ROT: (Race Officer Timing) Where the race officer times competitors from stopwatch or other timing device and records times of competitors passing and/or crossing specified point. Other: _____________________________________________________________________________ Chicken |
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but ideas thoughts and opinions are welcome.